Yesterday, quite a touching, fun and surprising thing happened. I'd written a piece for The Guardian's Comment is Free site, in which I proposed an alternative bus advert to the religious ads currently running on London buses. I thought that, if religious people can have an ad, why can't atheists?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/20/transport.religion
The article suggested that all atheists reading the piece give £5 to fund the new advert.
I was very worried about the response. I thought Guardian readers would think I'd gone Honey Nut Loops, but within two hours, there were plenty of encouraging and enthusiastic comments (including a comment from the National Secular Society) and over 30 donations on the Cif thread, with a total of £345.
I also received an email from a political blogger called Jon Worth, who had posted the idea on his blog, along with a virtual mock-up of the bus:
http://www.jonworth.eu/in-your-face-atheism/
He then set up a Pledgebank site, linked to a Facebook site, where people could sign their pledges:
http://www.pledgebank.com/atheistbus
Only 45 people have signed up, so it's probably not going to happen, but I'm really pleased that other people have liked the idea and run with it:
http://tj-place.blogspot.com/2008/06/there-is-no-god-and-your-idiotic-human.html
http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2008/06/atheism-worthy-cause.html
http://viva-freemania.blogspot.com/
I think everyone should have freedom of speech - and as Kia said in the Cif comments, "Live and let live".
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40 comments:
I think your piece was such a relief of the frustration felt by atheists in London. In a rather charming and amusing way you made a clear and important political point.
It's not normal for me to blog about everything I read on CiF, and I've never before setup a pledge at Pledgebank. But that's the joy of the internet; it's possible to get some sort of collective action going in a matter of minutes if there's some idea that you like and want to work for.
If you're thinking up some quirky ideas for atheist campaigns in the future then count me in!
This is great Ariane - what a brilliant reaction! I especially like Freemania's piece. I knew there must be something in the ad regulations about this...
'Unfortunately, the 188 comments on the thread (and every other thread on the page) were later wiped. Spooky...'
Or the wrath of you know who?
Now, that would be a real (holy) ghost story...
I read it yesterday and I remember thinking how positive the vast majority of comments were, some of the suggestions were hilarious!
Also, I saw one of the offending buses the other day and I was more taken by the shear lack of imagination and design than I was with the message. If you could spare almost £24,000 for an add, you should be able to spare enough money for a designer!
Shame it probably won't 'eventualise', but reaction to the idea was worth it.
Good job!
Ha! My only concern is that "there probably isn't a god" sounds a bit wishy-washy agnostic to me...
DK
Jon: Thank you again - I had no idea how to set it up as the positive response was so unexpected, so I'm very grateful to you. We now have 58, but you never know how it could take off...
Hattie: Cheers - and double thanks for the advice yesterday!
ER: The comments keep reappearing and disappearing again with different totals, so I'm not certain it's divine intervention. Your own ghost story is more compelling, I think.
Josh: Thanks! And I'm glad someone else has seen the ads too - I was beginning to think I'd imagined them...
Mantecanaut: Welcome to the blog - thanks for posting, and glad you liked the idea. You just never know...
DK: I am often a bit "wishy-washy agnostic", it's true - but the "probably" was inserted so that the ad company would be more likely to run the ad (as well as being a loose parody of the Carlsberg slogan).
Far be it from me to encourage you (there are already enough religious ads on buses without atheists running them too) ... but I'll do so if it will give us some organised atheists less barking than the NSS people (say some who check their facts before holding forth).
Anyway - bus ads are a *hell* (sorry) of a lot (meaning maybe 40-70%) cheaper in Jan, Feb and March when there are no real sales opportunities after Christmas. That's why Councils run ads for their websites then (or why we did).
Jon's suggested wording will mean all that will happen is that some Smart Alec will overwrite "no" with "a" and they will all run to the nearest Church of England...
Yeah, I really enjoyed your piece Ariane. Would've commented on it directly but I try to avoid dipping my toes into the madness that is CiF.
And I'd have offered to chip in for the ad, but I prefer to fight the forces of superstition and theocracy with sarky blogging rather than, you know, money and effort and that...
Matt Wardman: That's interesting about the cheaper rates for winter - maybe we'll have saved enough up for the bus by January!
Tom Freeman: Thanks a lot. The sarky blogging has probably helped people find the Pledgebank site, so you've been instrumental even if you haven't pledged yourself.
Congrats on the article, Ariane. A welcome change to the usual religious fare served up at CiF.
Little surprise that the pledge hasn't taken off, I think - the old adage is true: organising atheists is much like herding cats.
Still, the concept was worthwhile, and maybe a couple of theists left with an appreciation of the message behind it. Hope springs eternal.... :)
Bit of a gripe. You seem to imply that 'Christian' and 'Atheist' are the only two possible options out there. Plenty of other religions about. And it's not just atheists that find stupid ads about Jesus annoying.
David Cognito: Thank you for taking the time to post - I'm very glad you liked it. And you just never know!
Anonymous: Good point, and very true. I forgot to say in the article that people of all faiths have to get on these buses. However, as I'm an atheist,
(a) I couldn't really get behind a counter-ad of another faith, and
(b) I'm not sure it would be reassuring to simply counter "Jesus Says" with "[Another Prophet Says]", because you'd still be saying that anyone who didn't agree with this was on the wrong path and therefore doomed - and it's this idea that I take issue with.
Thank you very much for your post.
Sorry Tom - it was funny but perhaps not as moderate as is prudent for this blog! Apologies for censoring you.
That's fair enough, Ariane - these things happen. Sorry for misjudging!
David Cognito, I'm a theist and thought the post was hysterical.
Nice one Ariane.
Thanks a lot Zohra - really glad you liked it.
I like the idea!
I'd offer a fiver from Norway, but as there's no mention of how to pay, then paying might become complicated. Paypal would be nice. :)
Thanks a lot! No payment would be taken until we had enough people, and right now we only have 110, but you can sign up here to say that you would contribute:
http://www.pledgebank.com/atheistbus
and then we'd email to let you know if the total was reached. After which we'd probably use Paypal.
Thanks for leaving a comment and taking an interest.
Fantastic idea-- have just pledged
Thanks a lot Michael - hopefully it'll be a reality one day!
I love this idea, and have signed the pledge. But I've also had a look at the rates, and the bendy bus seems to be an unnecessarily expensive option.
You can get a banner along the side of a central London bus (a "London Gold" "Superside" to use the ad lingo) for £508 for two weeks.
Obviously the reach won't be as broad, but with the power of the message, and the unprecedented, newsworthy nature of the event, surely it would be enough?
Hi David,
Thanks a lot for your comment - really glad you like the idea!
However, I have two reservations about the £508 "Super Sides" idea. Firstly, the pledge says "I will pay £5 towards the campaign to put an atheist advert on the side of a London bus, but only if 4,678 other people anywhere will do the same." So people have pledged on this basis, probably many on the understanding that if the initiative ever went ahead, there would be real strength in numbers. There's a big difference between 4,680 atheists coming together to make a difference, and 130 atheists doing the same. 4,680 would be truly newsworthy, and proof that atheists in this country really are frustrated with the constant religious influence in schools, politics and now on public transport. 130 would be far less so, and I'm not sure all of them would contribute the money if we changed the pledge.
Also, the religious campaign running on the buses clearly has huge financial backing. This means, I strongly suspect, that their advertising company (CBS Outdoor) would be hugely reluctant to allow a comparatively poorly-financed group of atheists to run an ad which might jeopardise the revenue they receive from the Christian campaign. When I called their salesperson (back when I wrote the article), and asked whether they would run an atheist ad, he replied, "It'd be controversial, but that's never stopped us before". But I don't think he realised it would be a counter-response, and he also wasn't aware of the proposed wording. There may well be other bus advertising companies though - I haven't researched this thoroughly - but I still think the first point would preclude us from trying to run the ad until we reached the total.
Sorry to seem slightly lukewarm on the idea - you make a very good point, and if £508 had been proposed from the start, things may have been very different. I would love to see 4,680 atheists sign up, and the bus company to run our ad - and I very much hope we eventually get enough people and backing for that to one day become a reality.
Thanks again,
Ariane
How about going for the cheaper bus, but putting it on several buses and/or for a longer period?
That way you still get the strength of numbers, and the same publicity. In fact I'd say you'd get more publicity, because now you have the advert on 46 London buses, not just one! The pledge is still being fulfilled (it says nothing about "Bendy bus").
I also suspect that many atheists are put off by what seems like a huge amount of money just to get a single advert for a small amount of time (the current signup rate suggests a final estimate of only 301 signers - far short of the target, but enough for almost 3 adverts at the cheaper rate).
There's also the problem that this is a bit all-or-nothing - what if you don't get enough money in from the pledge, and you end up a few hundred pounds short? Going for the £508 one means you can buy as much advertising space as you get the money for.
I love the idea and have signed, but I feel it'd be more likely to succeed by going for a more realistic rate...
emarkienna,
Thanks a lot for your comment - you make some very good points. I'll talk to Jon Worth and see what he thinks.
Many thanks,
Ariane
You are right that you should stick to the original pledge now that it has started. I have put an article up at The Freethinker and sent emails off to RichardDawkins.net and Pharyngula (in case no one else has yet).
Then at the end of the month, even if the target isn't reached we know how many people are interested and go with something like emarkienna's suggestion.
Before you collect another pound, you may wish to check with the bus advertising people and make sure that they will allow you to post such a message. Quite frequently, those sorts of "inflammatory" messages are not allowed. And if that's the case, you'll have to find something else atheist-y to do with the money collected so far.
However, if you update that you're sure the advertising will be allowed, I'll forward my cash. (Perhaps this has already been covered somewhere in the comments - I admit, I haven't read them all.)
Great idea, have pledged the money.
Littlehoudini - no money has been collected or paid afaik - the pledge thing is just about saying you would give the money if enough people got together and it went ahead.
I've signed!
DJCJD: Thanks a lot - and also for explaining about the pledges.
Cabalamat: Cheers!
These adverts have been bothering me for years, I'd like to see ads in train stations too (not being a Londoner that's where I mostly see these godbothering posters). I hope the campaign goes beyond pledgebank effort: I'd have pledged a bit more than £5 if I could! I've been pondering the idea of a fundraising gig or two for a while.
Hope the campaign goes on, anyhow - this pledge doesn't look like it's going to be met, so I hope you & Jon consider the cheaper option, if only to start with. Maybe open it out for voting on slogans: you should be able to get some press & blog coverage for that! I'd be glad to help out. Jon has my email address.
Hi Richard,
Thanks a lot for your posts and pledge. I'm really pleased that you like the idea of the campaign. We're thinking of where to go next with it, and will be sure to keep you updated. I also wrote this (more recent) post on it, which has some more interesting comments and ideas from people:
http://arianesherine.blogspot.com/2008/07/kindness-of-strangers.html
Thanks again,
Ariane
I think you have all gone a bit Honey Nut Loops as Ariane suggested.
My question is, do you really have such a vehement objection to this one ad (not that I've seen it as I don't live or work in London)? Based on the comments posted here and elsewhere, can we expect you to be setting up pledges to pay for counter ads for all other products, services and organisations you don't like that advertise on the sides of buses? I would guess there's a few among the supporters of this initiative who also complain about sex and violence on TV but haven't yet worked out how to use a remote control to change the channel.
Personally, I'm pretty ambivalent about religion. Each to their own and all that but it amuses me that the best slogan a bunch of atheists can come up with is one that acknowledges the possible existence of God!
I'm not saying you shouldn't do this; I'm all for freedom of speech, but if you are you need to have the courage of your convictions and have the ad say 'there is no god' or, to be inclusive of all world religions, 'there are no gods'. Then maybe you'll be taken a little more seriously.
p.s. I haven't signed the pledge. There are more important causes in the world to support.
Pete.
If you had bothered to read any of the other messages left you would have learned that the phrasing of the slogan for the campaign could not, for legal reasons, have claimed there is no god. Also we could not upset the religious types too much or the ad would have never seen the light of day.
From a scientific point of view the existence of god cannot be disproved, however unlikley he/she is. So its better not to deal with absolutions. (To start with).
What can be a more worthy cause than the removing of religion from the world?
Imagine how many people have died in the name of religion.
I´m French, so pardon me if my english isn´t that perfect.
The message of Jesus was a message of freedom and peace, he was teaching to the people how to become better, giving a sense to there life, to become good persons. Knowing that it wouldn´t be sufficient to convince the people, in order to add weight to his message, he had to promise eternal life, he had to invent something greater than the man : "God". And he had to threaten the people on a certain way (Hell) to oblige them to follow his message. He has created the fear.
More than 2000 years later I´m convinced that most of the "civilized" people, doesn´t need that fear, that threat, the promise of the eternal life to be good persons.
Most of the people can not believe anymore in the obsolete ideas of most of the religions, but unfortunatly it doesn´t mean that they have found a sense in there life. So we have to create something new, it is not sufficient to show to the world that we also exist (people you don´t believe in the admitted image of god), it should be the beginning of something.
Basically I think that the original message of most of the religion were positive, intenting to help people to reach a balanced life. Only the way to convice was mostly wrong in my eyes.
Nowadays our mission is simple (not easy), and actually we won´t have to convince the people, because they will convince themself. We have to learn them, how to be balanced and happy,how to "enjoy your life", how to create a paradis an earth (I know I´m a dreamer, but if I can share my dreams with many other people, in the end it will come truth !! Yes !). Therefor we have to educate our children (latter it is most difficult) in order to become selfconfident persons, who believe in there dreams, who are strong enough to fullfill them, who doesn´t accept all the frustrations without fighting, who are open enough to share their ideas and to listen to the other...And if you are a balanced person, a happy person, you will be able to share it with the others, you will be able to show the direction, you will be able to open the eyes of the others, to help them...You will not be able to ignore the starving people in our streets or in underdeveloped countries, you will not stand that we destroy slowly our planet, you will not accept that the money and the profit is becoming the aim of the world, you will not accept anymore that people mistreat other people...and you will act to change all these...and be happy doing all these...and when the end will come, you will be able to close the eyes satisfied of your life on earth and without fear for the next step.....
Ariane, I commend you on your creative campaign and great website.
Nonetheless, I am praying for you as Jesus did on the cross: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
May the gift of faith fall freshly on you and that you may one day use your great talent and cognitive skills for God’s glory.
Which god is it you pray to on our behalf?
There is so many it gets confusing, even the old testament god seems different from the new testament one.
Personally, I prefer to put my trust in humankind, we seem a capable bunch.
Hey Duncan
First you say and I quote: "Imagine how many people have died in the name of religion" and then you say "we seem a capable bunch". It's people that cause the problems not religion...how capable was Hitler or Stalin or any of these other warmongers and exactly what religion did they belong to? The only thing that "we" in general are capable of doing is screwing up everything. I agree with Pete when he says there are more important causes in the world to support.
Of course there are other causes, but who says you can only do one at a time?
For myself, I am curently pondering a new social system without the need for capitalism or going back to the middle ages.
I am also pledging time and money to the ANH in a (seemingly) futile bid to stop the pharmaceuticals via the EU from destroying the vitamins and supplement market, both worthy causes I'm sure you will agree.
I believe Hitler was a christian he certainly mentioned god, jesus and the bible and suchlike in his speeches to spur on his troops, not sure about the Russian chap though, I will look into it.
I admit there are a lot of, well, incapable people around, blindly following religous rhetoric even to the point of there own death or worse lots of other peoples death. I mean just imagine if there was no religion to speak of and you tried to get a bunch of Romans/Vikings/Greeks (take your pick here or add your own) to enter a battlefield without being safe in the knowledge that there was no god or heaven, that you probablly would'nt get to see all your family and friends and be rewarded with countless virgins and a never ending supply of ale/wine. would they have sacrificed their precious existence?
Would religion be as strong today if the catholic church had not spent hundreds of years murdering & torturung millions of people around the world in the most staggering dictatorship of all time?
WE are capable, Atheists, Humanists and like minded folk, who believe, as I do, that you only get the one shot, so enjoy existing. appreciate being alive, feeling and seeing (random, not design) beauty in the world.
Oh! Sorry were you implying they were both Atheists?
It's your kind of negativity that gets me down, we don't screw everything up, there are films, literature, artwork and music that are so spectacularly fantastic they have made me cry or feel elated.
We have been to outer space, to other planets (ok moons).
We Can fly, after a fashion and dive to great depths.
As a species we are capable of great things.
Sure bad things too, but I will let you and yours dwell on those.
Sorry if it was a tad erratic
Duncan
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